MenAreGood
Why Men Don’t Fight Back: Key Insights from Research
Gynocentrism #5
November 07, 2024

Why Men Don’t Fight Back: Key Insights from Research

The previous post explored a number of reasons why men often refrain from pushing back, focusing on the ideas of male hierarchy and gynocentrism. While these concepts are straightforward, academic research directly addressing them is scarce. However, over the past two decades, studies have inadvertently deepened our understanding of both. Research on Moral Typecasting highlights the reality of gynocentrism by illustrating the contrasting ways that men and women receive empathy and compassion. Meanwhile, studies on Precarious Manhood and testosterone's role in social behavior shed light on the male hierarchy and the constant social negotiations men navigate within it. Although these studies don’t directly address men’s reluctance to push back, they reveal patterns that support this behavior, painting a compelling picture of the social and biological factors that can make men less inclined to retaliate, both interpersonally and socially.  Let's first look at moral typecasting.

Moral Typecasting

 

The concept of moral typecasting sheds light on why men often don’t fight back. In moral psychology, moral typecasting explains how people tend to categorize others into one of two roles in moral situations: moral agents (those who take action and demonstrate agency) and moral patients (those who receive action and embody patiency).

Research suggests that individuals are usually categorized as either “doers” (moral agents with agency) or “sufferers” (moral patients with patiency), and these roles are largely seen as mutually exclusive. Once someone is perceived as having agency, they’re viewed as less capable of suffering or as less deserving of compassion. Conversely, those seen as having patiency are regarded as victims who deserve empathy, are assumed to feel more pain, and are seen as worthy of support.

Recent research reveals that people are more inclined to automatically assign agency to men and patiency to women. As a result, most people tend to see men as having agency and women as having patiency.

The table below illustrates these general attitudes:

Agency (Men)                                      Patiency (Women)
Seen as capable                                   Seen as vulnerable
Receive less support                            Seen as victims
Viewed as blameworthy                        Viewed as needing support
Deemed deserving of punishment        Deserving of compassion

 

This means that women are more likely to be seen as vulnerable and deserving of support. It also helps us to understand why many people will look for excuses for women even in the extreme case of when they are convicted of a crime.  People will automatically offer excuses for her such as her past abuse or her mental health issues as reasons for her misbehavior. Men, on the other hand, are more likely to be viewed as having agency, meaning they are expected to be capable and self-sufficient, with less need for compassion. If a man is convicted of a crime, people are more likely to believe he deserves full punishment. These biases are unconscious and automatic; most people are unaware of them.  This impacts a huge decrease in length of sentencing for the same crime. Research tells us that the bias is so strong that women get 62% less time in jail for the same crime.  This is moral typecasting/gynocentrism at work.  And no one notices.

These findings parallel the gynocentric model that predicts that women will receive more compassion and support simply for being women. We add onto that the moral typecasting findings that men by default will be less likely to get compassion and understanding.  Men's pain and needs are more likely to be ignored.

How Moral Typecasting Affects Men's Reluctance to Fight Back

This bias influences men's reluctance to fight back. Both men and women in relationships are likely to perceive the woman as vulnerable and deserving of support (e.g., "never hit a girl"). At the same time, the man is seen as having agency, so he is expected to help and take responsibility and is much less deserving of support. This dynamic creates a silent, but powerful, impact on relationships, the belief that a man's role is to help and support the woman and to avoid voicing his own needs. (happy wife, happy life) Men are aware that people care much more about the difficulties of women and not about his difficulties, and tend to stay quiet.  How does one fight back for something no one cares about?  They don't.  This is clearly marking the quiet and powerful workings of gynocentrism that creates a different world for men and for women.

If the man fails in some way, he is seen as deserving of punishment, while the woman’s failures are met with compassion and understanding.  This sets men up to have their pain ignored.  If people believe you are not entitled to an emotional response to hardship, that diminishes their interest in hearing your struggles, your wants, and your needs.  And men live in a world that expects them to have agency, get the job done and not complain. Men are very aware that no one wants to hear their personal problems.  Many men simply feel it is not worth it to complain. When no one wants to hear  your struggles and difficulties it makes it senseless to complain about your struggles and difficulties.  Attacking feminism would be just that.  It would be seen as a complaint from a "privileged" man who has agency and would be viewed as being anti-woman.   In some ways, relationships are a set up.

Emotional Impact of Agency and Patiency

Another critical aspect is how agency limits the expression of tender emotions. A person with agency (mostly men) is expected to get things done, not to show vulnerability or cry. In contrast, someone with patiency is expected to have emotions and is often rewarded for expressing them and being vulnerable. This dynamic encourages women in relationships to express emotions, while discouraging men from doing the same. Women are allowed emotional expression; men are not. At the same time men are expected to have agency and help her with her needs.  So he is silenced and she is given permission to openly emote/complain and he is responsible to fix it. This not only directly impacts the amount of compassion each receives, it also creates a one way path where the man's needs are of less importance.  This explains how when a man complains about feminism and how it negatively impacts him he is usually called a whiner.  "Stop your whining!  You have it all!"

It's easy now to see that men will be less likely to ask for help, complain about their situation, or even to point out a double standard.  Why?  Because people are by default, biased to care more about the needs of women and not as much about the needs of men.  If he complains it puts him into a position of claiming vulnerability and need and this is exactly what moral typecasting tends to stifle.  When she complains people listen, when he complains people will likely call him a baby and tell him he needs to man up.  Just listen to women talk about their husbands when the husbands are ill.  The women can only tolerate a man's neediness for a short period before she burns out and throws her hands up in the air saying that he is such a baby and needs to grow up.  A man's dependency is very tough on women.  

How does this show up in the real world?  Have you ever told a feminist that men are also victims of domestic violence?  The result is that you will likely be immediately attacked.  It's easy to see how women's pain is an important topic but men's pain is avoided at all cost. I remember telling a feminist domestic violence worker that men were a considerable portion of the victims but had no services.  Did she commiserate about the men who were left out?  No, first she loudly denied it and next told me I was a misogynist, that I didn't really care about women.  Then she finished up by saying "If there are male victims you need to build shelters for them just like we did for women."  Note that she feels perfectly all right in taking credit for the building of services for women and is equally happy to hold me to be the accountable party to build new shelters for men.  This of course relieves her of any responsibility for  the problem.  Pretty slick for someone who likely didn't lift a finger to build those shelters.  Men built them, men funded them, men legislated for them.  And so it goes.  That is the nature of moral typecasting.  It basically has a hand in shutting men up.  


Precarious Manhood

 

Research on precarious manhood reveals that the experiences of manhood and womanhood are fundamentally different. For girls, reaching womanhood is tied to a biological event—menstruation—after which they are considered women. Psychologists refer to this as an ascribed status, meaning it is granted based on a biological milestone. In contrast, manhood is not an ascribed status. Even after puberty, boys are not automatically considered men.  They have to prove it.

The research shows that, across many cultures worldwide, boys must prove their manhood through public actions or achievements. Even when a boy is accepted as a man by his culture, his status is fragile—he can lose it if he behaves in ways deemed unmanly. This is why it’s called "precarious manhood." The original researcher Joseph Vandello, describes manhood as "hard to gain but easy to lose." This experience is completely different from that of girls becoming women, as they do not have to prove anything to gain their status as women. This leaves boys and men sensitive to anything that might raise or lower their status. Males and females live in very different worlds but no one tells the boys that is the case.

A central aspect of precarious manhood, (and the male hierarchy) is the role women play in judging a man's masculinity. Men will also judge other men but this is the judgement of a competitor since men are in competition with each other. This makes women's judgement of men important. The sum of men's and women's judgements of men is typically for the purpose of ranking the man within the male hierarchy. This ranking is key in the man's ability to attract the top females. This positions women as crucial evaluators of a man's masculinity, making men hesitant to do anything that could diminish their status in women's eyes. Fighting back, for instance, could risk alienating those who judge their status. In a competition where there are judges, would you want to piss them off?? Of course not—you want to impress them.  Would you want to tell them that feminists, who they believe support their female side of the equation are not telling the truth?  How do you think that would go over?  You would quickly be seen as a misogynist.

Can you see how precarious manhood prevents men from expressing vulnerabilities or anything that might jeopardize their status?  Can  you see that attacking feminism would likely not only fall on deaf ears but be viewed as anti-woman?  Complaining about women/feminists would likely be a failing effort considering the dynamics of precarious manhood and moral typecasting.


Testosterone

 

Testosterone research has shown us that men's levels of Testosterone impact his desire to strive for status. This of course integrates with the precarious manhood and moral typecasting we have seen above.  From the social side men are pushed by precarious manhood to strive for status and from the biological side testosterone also pushes men to strive in a similar manner.  It's a squeeze play as men are pushed from both sides, social and biological. Testosterone also lowers men's fears and increases their willingness to take risks.  Very few women understand these things and often will find themselves judging men unfairly since it differs from their own path and they have been taught the erroneous idea that men and women are all the same. Testosterone is yet another reason, in addition to precarious manhood and moral typecasting for men to use caution when complaining about or challenging women or feminists. 

Whether it is moral typecasting, precarious manhood or the downplaying of the man's side of a relationship we see a common theme:  the woman's needs and desires take precedence over the man's.  This is rarely discussed or even acknowledged.  My experience with couples therapists over the years was consistent.  They tended to focus on what the woman wanted and needed and the man's needs and wants came in second place.  The unwritten and unspoken rule seems to be that she comes first (ladies first) and he should be responsible to see that it happens.  Things are further complicated by the tendency to ignore men's needs and emotional pain.  He is seen by default as someone with agency and this negates the concerns for his side of things.  He is expected to take care of things and not complain.  When he does complain you see fireworks.  I remember working in therapy with a family of a man who had just lost his multi-million dollar fortune.  Were the children and wife compassionate towards his loss?  Were they concerned about his emotional state. No.  They were angry at him since his loss meant they were now having to downgrade their lifestyle.  He was treated more like a spigot than a human being.

In light of all this, it becomes clearer why men often hesitate to challenge feminist narratives or advocate for their own needs. The research findings of moral typecasting, precarious manhood, and biological drivers like testosterone show a strong incentive for men to stay silent, to avoid challenging views that may compromise their perceived status or provoke social backlash. These dynamics not only perpetuate the expectation that men should “man up” and bear hardships without complaint but also contribute to a cultural framework where men’s voices and vulnerabilities are often minimized. Understanding these influences allows us to see the silent struggles men face in a society that expects strength, discourages vulnerability, and often places men’s needs on the back burner. And most people simply don't see it.  Gynocentrism runs silent and it runs deep.

The next post in this series will focus on how feminists weaponized an already powerful gynocentrism to insure that men did not fight back.

Moral Typecasting
https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/dwegner/files/gray__wegner_2009_moral_typecasting.pdf

Tania Reynolds
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342642686_Man_up_and_take_it_Gender_bias_in_moral_typecasting

Precarious Manhood - Vandello
https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/features/men-a0029826.pdf

Bosson Research - Precarious Manhood in 62 nations around the world
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/349767070_Psychometric_Properties_and_Correlates_of_Precarious_Manhood_Beliefs_in_62_Nations

Testosterone
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21616702/

Sentencing Research
The study: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2144002

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We now have a new section that is accessible in the top navbar of the substack page titled AI Books. It contains links to numerous books on men's issues that each have an AI app that is able to answer detailed questions about the book. The above video gives some ideas of how to use these.

https://menaregood.substack.com/s/ai-books

The Myth of Male Power - Warren Farrell
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Links below

Myth of Male Power - Warren Farrell

The Myth of Male Power - documents how virtually every society that survived did so by persuading its sons to be disposable. This is one of the most powerful books...

00:11:44

Something men seem to do all the time that women seem to find extreamaly unlikely or impossible.

Made me laugh!!

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1AKtUoYg8x/?mibextid=wwXIfr

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1FwqtFuR2Z/?mibextid=wwXIfr

I have often made this connection. It’s a little too on point to not research and derstand better. I am fairly sure there is something to it.

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Why Would Boys Choose AI Over a Real Human?

It’s easy to blame technology. It’s harder to ask why a boy might feel safer talking to a machine than to a person.


Why Would Boys Choose AI Over a Real Human?

An article recently published by The Tyee raises alarms about boys and young men turning to AI companion chatbots for emotional support. The piece is framed as a thoughtful exploration of risk: misinformation, emotional dependency, radicalization, misogyny, and the danger of boys rehearsing their inner lives in the company of a machine rather than a human being.

On the surface, it sounds compassionate. Reasonable, even. Who wouldn’t want to protect young people from harm?

But when you slow the article down and look carefully at how boys are portrayed—what is assumed, what is omitted, and what is quietly feared—a different story begins to emerge. This is not really an article about boys’ needs. It is an article about adult discomfort with boys finding support outside approved channels.

And yes, there is misandry here—not loud, not crude, but woven into the framing itself.



Boys Are Being Explained, Not Heard

The article asks why boys and young men might be drawn to AI companions. That’s a fair question. But notice something immediately: no boy ever speaks.

There are no quotes from boys.
No first-person accounts.
No testimony that is treated as authoritative.

Instead, boys are interpreted through:

  • academic research

  • institutional language

  • risk models

  • public opinion polling

Boys are not subjects here. They are objects of concern.

This is a familiar pattern. When girls seek connection, we listen. When boys do, we analyze.



Male Emotional Life Is Treated as a Deficit

Early in the article, we’re told that boys face pressure to conform to emotional toughness, limiting their empathy and emotional literacy. This is a common trope, and it does important rhetorical work.

It subtly establishes that:

  • boys are emotionally underdeveloped

  • their distress is partly self-inflicted

  • their coping strategies are suspect

What’s missing is just as important.

There is no serious acknowledgment that boys:

  • are punished for vulnerability

  • are mocked or shamed for emotional honesty

  • quickly learn that expressing confusion or hurt can backfire socially

To me, it seems this omission matters. Boys don’t avoid emotional expression because they lack empathy. They avoid it because it is often unsafe.

AI doesn’t shame them.
AI doesn’t roll its eyes.
AI doesn’t correct their tone.
AI doesn’t imply that their feelings are dangerous.

That alone explains much of the appeal.



Male Pain Is Framed as a Threat

One of the most telling moves in the article is the escalation from loneliness to danger:

“Over time, isolation and loneliness may lead to depression, violence and even radicalization.”

This sentence does enormous cultural work.

Male suffering is not simply tragic—it is potentially menacing. The implication is clear: we must intervene, regulate, and monitor because these boys might become dangerous.

Notice how rarely female loneliness is framed this way. Women’s pain is treated as something to be soothed. Men’s pain is treated as something to be managed.

That asymmetry is not accidental. It reflects a long-standing cultural reflex: male distress is tolerated only insofar as it does not alarm us.



AI Is Cast as the Problem, Not the Symptom

The article repeatedly warns that AI companions provide a “frictionless illusion” of relationship. They affirm rather than challenge. They comfort without conflict. They validate rather than correct.

All of that may be true.

But the article never asks the most important question:

Why does a machine feel safer than a human being?

If boys are choosing AI over people, that tells us something uncomfortable about the human environments we’ve created:

  • schools where boys are disciplined more than understood

  • therapies that privilege verbal fluency and emotional disclosure

  • cultural narratives that frame masculinity as suspect

  • media portrayals that associate male grievance with moral danger

AI did not create these conditions. It simply exposed them.



The Misogyny Panic

At one point, the article imagines a boy frustrated in a relationship with a girl, and worries that a chatbot might echo his resentment and guide him toward misogynistic interpretations.

Pause there.

The boy’s frustration is immediately framed as a moral hazard.
His emotional pain is treated as something that must be challenged, corrected, or redirected. The girl’s role in the relational dynamic is never examined.

This is a familiar cultural rule:

  • men’s hurt must be monitored

  • women’s hurt must be believed

That is not equality. That is a hierarchy of empathy.



The Telltale Reassurance

The article includes this sentence:

“It is important to note that boys and young men are not inherently violent or hypermasculine.”

This kind of reassurance only appears when the reader has already been nudged toward suspicion. It functions less as a defense of boys and more as a rhetorical safety valve.

“We’re not saying boys are dangerous,” it implies.
“But we need to be careful.”

Careful of what, exactly?
Of boys speaking freely?
Of boys forming interpretations that haven’t been pre-approved?



What This Article Is Really About

Beneath the stated concern about AI is a deeper anxiety: boys are finding connection without adult mediation.

They are:

  • seeking reassurance without moral correction

  • exploring their inner lives without being pathologized

  • forming narratives without institutional oversight

That is unsettling to systems that have grown accustomed to managing male emotion rather than trusting it.

The solution offered, predictably, is not listening.
It is regulation.
Restriction.
Monitoring.
Expert oversight.

Boys are once again framed as problems to be handled, not people to be heard.



The Sentence That Cannot Be Written

There is one sentence the article cannot bring itself to say:

“Boys are turning to AI because they do not feel safe being honest with adults.”

If that were acknowledged, responsibility would shift.
Away from boys.
Away from technology.
And onto a culture that routinely treats male emotional life as suspect.



A Different Way to Read This Moment

From where I sit, boys turning to AI is not evidence of moral decay or technological danger. It is evidence of relational failure.

When a machine feels safer than a human being, the problem is not the machine.

The question we should be asking is not:
“How do we stop boys from using AI?”

But rather:
“What have we done that makes human connection feel so risky?”

Until we are willing to ask that question honestly, boys will continue to seek spaces—digital or otherwise—where their inner lives are not immediately judged.

And I can’t fault them for that.

Read full Article
January 12, 2026
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How Gynocentrism Masquerades as Maturity, Empathy, and Love


How Gynocentrism Masquerades as Maturity, Empathy, and Love

One of the reasons gynocentrism is so difficult to challenge is that it rarely announces itself. It does not arrive as hostility toward men. It does not require anyone to say, “Men matter less.” In fact, it often appears wearing the language of virtue.

It looks like maturity.
It sounds like empathy.
It feels like love.

And that is precisely why so many decent, conscientious men live inside it without ever naming it.

1. Gynocentrism as “Emotional Maturity”

From a young age, boys are taught that maturity means emotional restraint. That part is not necessarily wrong. But somewhere along the way, restraint quietly turns into self-erasure.

A “mature” man is expected to:

  • De-escalate conflict, even when he didn’t start it

  • Absorb criticism without defensiveness

  • Yield when emotions run high

  • Take responsibility for relational tension

When a woman is upset, maturity means responding quickly and carefully. When a man is upset, maturity means questioning himself.

Over time, men learn a subtle rule:

If she is distressed, something must be wrong.
If he is distressed, he must be wrong.

This double standard is rarely stated outright, but it is widely enforced. Men who challenge it are described as immature, fragile, or emotionally stunted. Men who comply are praised for being “evolved.”

The result is not balance. It is a moral asymmetry.

2. Gynocentrism as Empathy

Empathy is meant to be mutual. But under gynocentrism, empathy becomes directional.

Men are encouraged—often relentlessly—to attune to women’s feelings:

  • to anticipate them

  • to prioritize them

  • to protect them

Meanwhile, men’s emotional experiences are treated as less legible and less urgent. A woman’s distress is seen as meaningful data. A man’s distress is treated as noise, defensiveness, or latent pathology.

Notice how often men are told:

  • “Listen to how she feels.”

  • “You need to understand the impact.”

  • “Her emotions are valid.”

And how rarely they hear:

  • “Your experience matters too.”

  • “You’re allowed to be affected.”

  • “Let’s be curious about what you feel.”

Men internalize the idea that empathy means placing themselves second. They become skilled at reading others while becoming strangers to themselves.

This is not empathy. It is emotional labor performed in one direction.

3. Gynocentrism as Love

Perhaps the most powerful disguise gynocentrism wears is love.

Many men come to believe that love means:

  • sacrificing without limit

  • suppressing their own needs

  • avoiding anything that might cause female discomfort

They learn that a good man protects the relationship by absorbing tension rather than expressing it. Harmony becomes the highest value—even when it comes at the cost of honesty.

What makes this especially insidious is that no one has to demand it.

Men assume it.

They assume that:

  • her needs are more fragile

  • her pain carries more moral weight

  • his endurance is part of the deal

So when a man goes quiet, he tells himself he is being loving. When he lets go of something that mattered to him, he calls it compromise. When he feels invisible, he frames it as strength.

Love, under gynocentrism, becomes a test of how much a man can endure without complaint.

4. Why It Feels “Normal”

Gynocentrism persists not because men are coerced, but because the assumptions feel reasonable.

After all:

  • Women do express distress more openly.

  • Men are often physically and emotionally stronger.

  • Conflict does escalate when men push back.

But reasonable observations quietly turn into unreasonable conclusions.

Strength becomes obligation.
Sensitivity becomes entitlement.
Peace becomes the man’s responsibility alone.

What began as care turns into hierarchy.

5. The Cost to Men—and to Relationships

The tragedy of gynocentrism is not just that men lose themselves. It’s that relationships lose honesty.

When men cannot safely express frustration, sadness, or fatigue, intimacy becomes one-sided. When men are praised for silence rather than truth, connection becomes performative.

Eventually, men either:

  • disappear emotionally

  • erupt unexpectedly

  • or leave quietly, confused about how love turned into loneliness

None of these outcomes serve women either.

6. Seeing It Is the First Step

The most important thing to understand is this:

Gynocentrism does not require bad intentions.
It thrives on good ones.

It feeds on men’s desire to be kind, fair, and loving—and quietly redirects those virtues into self-neglect.

Naming it is not about blame.
It is about restoring balance.

Because maturity includes self-respect.
Empathy includes the self.
And love that requires one person to disappear is not love—it is compliance.

Once men see this pattern, many feel something unexpected.

Not rage.

Relief.

Relief that the unease they felt had a name—and that fairness does not require their erasure.

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January 08, 2026
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The Reasonable Man


The Reasonable Man

Evan liked to think of himself as fair.

He listened. He adjusted. He didn’t raise his voice. When there was tension, he assumed he had missed something—some emotional nuance, some unspoken need. That, he believed, was maturity.

When his wife, Laura, came home upset from work, Evan canceled his plans without mentioning them. It seemed obvious that her day mattered more. When she criticized his tone, he apologized—even when he wasn’t sure what he had done wrong. If she was unhappy, the situation required fixing, and fixing required him.

This wasn’t resentment. It was love.

At least, that’s what Evan told himself.

When decisions came up—where to live, how to spend money, which friendships to maintain—Evan instinctively deferred. Laura had stronger feelings, clearer opinions. He told himself that intensity meant importance. If something mattered more to her, then it mattered more, period.

When his friend Mark complained about feeling sidelined in his own marriage, Evan felt embarrassed for him.

“You just have to be more emotionally aware,” Evan said. “Women carry more of that burden.”

Mark didn’t argue. He just looked tired.

At work, Evan was the same way. When female colleagues spoke, he nodded, encouraged, amplified. When men expressed frustration, Evan subtly distanced himself. He didn’t want to be that guy—the one who failed to notice women’s struggles. If there was a conflict, he assumed the woman had been wronged, even if the facts were unclear. Experience had taught him that neutrality was risky.

Better to err on the side of empathy.

At home, Evan grew quieter over the years. Not withdrawn—just careful. He edited himself mid-sentence. He learned which opinions created friction and which disappeared smoothly. He stopped bringing up his exhaustion. He told himself it wasn’t that bad. Other men had it worse.

When Laura once asked why he seemed distant, Evan froze. The question felt dangerous, like stepping onto thin ice. He reassured her quickly, explaining that he just needed to “work on himself.” She nodded, relieved. The conversation moved on.

Evan felt oddly proud of that moment. He had protected the relationship.

It wasn’t until much later—after a sleepless night, after rereading an old journal entry he barely remembered writing—that something shifted.

The entry was simple:

I don’t know where I went.

That sentence unsettled him.

He started paying attention—not to Laura’s emotions, but to his own patterns. He noticed how quickly he assumed women’s distress carried moral weight while men’s distress required explanation. How often he treated female discomfort as an emergency and male discomfort as a character flaw. How rarely he asked whether his needs were reasonable, and how often he assumed they were negotiable.

He realized something uncomfortable: none of this had been demanded outright.

He had assumed it.

He had assumed that women’s feelings were more fragile, more important, more deserving of protection. That men should absorb impact quietly. That harmony depended on male self-erasure. That good men yield first—and keep yielding.

Only then did Evan have a word for what he had lived by.

Not kindness.
Not empathy.
But a quiet, invisible prioritization—so ingrained it had felt like morality itself.

Gynocentrism.

He didn’t feel angry when he named it. He felt sad. Sad for how natural it had seemed. Sad for how reasonable it had felt to place himself last without ever calling it a choice.

For the first time, Evan wondered what fairness would look like if it included him.

And the question, once asked, refused to go away.

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